www.cowries.info

[benicypraea]

Hello all:

Several specimens of certain species of cowries of the genus Zoila (mostly of them rare or very rare: jeaniana jeaniana, ketyana lutea, etc) have been collected in deep water (> 100 meters deep) in W.A. by ROV´s (Remote Operative Vehicle). However, I don´t know if they were collected just recently or maybe in the past decades and currently offered to the international shell market. I´d like to ask to cowry specialists, specially the ones from Australia, if they will be the real future of collecting there in deep water.
Will we know the deep habitat of some wished species from deep water like Zoila perlae perlae and Zoila mariellae?
New species of Zoila from deep water or any other else will be discovered thanks to ROV?
The deep sea still saves lots of secrets...
opinions, thoughs, remarks, remembrances, etc, are always welcome...
Regards,
Beni
_________________
I started to collect seashells since my childhood but I decided to focus on cowries in 1990. I like all kind of cowries, freaks, normal, nigers, dwarfs...
Also I collect conidae and Muricidae.

[Notocypraea]

G'day Beni,

I am sure Felix could probably give more information on this via his contacts.
But here is what I know...

There is currently only one operator (I won't mention his name) doing this in Australia (Based out of Western Australia of course. I think he has the only licence at present but not 100% sure). Probably doing more as a 'hobby' than any viable industry!?

Can you just imagine the cost & logistics involved with this type of operation? The potential for equipment failure etc.
They also can only collect on relatively flat low profile substrate area's.
That rules out a lot of the Southern Australian Zoila habitat.

Have to work a long way off shore, exposed to rough weather etc... No thanks!

I was actually recently offerred a freshly collected ROV taken jeaniana jeaniana from the Dirk Hartog Shelf (122m depth). But out of my price range.

I don't imagine the numbers of specimens being offerred by this method of fishing will be high. the price will always be relatively high as the running costs will be high.

Be interested to see what comes up over the next few years though.


Regards,
Simon

[benicypraea]

Hello again:

Dear Notocypraea, I agree in the following terms:

1.- The high cost of this kind of operation in deep water.

2.- The high cost of the failures and problems before, during and after the operation in deep water by ROVs.

3.- The high value of the most of the specimens (even in bad condition)
found by this expensive (or very expensive) way. This is a very important matter specially if most of the specimens are really collected just for the international market.

But also I would like to say that is (in my opinion at least) really a good way to know more about the misteries of the deep sea, not only for cowries, but for any other mollusc or marine organism, poorly known or even still not discovered.
Thanks for your opinion! I´d like to know the personal opinion of Felix and other from the comunity too...
Regards,
Beni
_________________
I started to collect seashells since my childhood but I decided to focus on cowries in 1990. I like all kind of cowries, freaks, normal, nigers, dwarfs...
Also I collect conidae and Muricidae.

[Cribraria Kid]

Hi all (Have we covered this before?)

Anyway

I guess now that the cat is out of the bag-so to speak, I guess I can tell you a bit about the ROV operation and perhaps a glimpse into the future.

A former very well known WA shell dealer, applied for an experimental/trial, exemption on his WA Specimen Shell Managed Fisheries License (SSMFL).

This initially caused a ripple thru some of the other SSMFL holders ( 32 of us) some were outright hostile.Some still are. Most just sat back and watched and waited to see what happened.

I was lucky enough to be invited in the setting up phase and help out on his vessel. I was onboard when he "caught" the first jeaniana since the Taiwnese in the '80's ( I think-please correct me if I'm wrong- naturally excluding the shallow water sherylae and Red Bluff/Coral Bay populations).

That night we also saw a single marginata but lost the shell. Since then quite a few spectacular jeaniana have been found, along with marginata and interestingly some typical rosselli (not satiata), have also been picked up on the 100 metre + jeaniana grounds

Now for a few hard facts.

For this specific operation

You need a WA SSMFL, $20,000 + exempion (could be problematic)

You need a suitable boat, $650,000 or there abouts plus on going mainainance and running costs ( fuel, food, crew wages etc)

You need an ROV, $300,000 or there abouts

You need training, spares, moniters, crew to operate the ROV $???

You need to base yourself somewhere close to the shell populations-and trust me, they aren't simply everywhere ( or travel to and from). They have very limited habitats and the populations are very isolated from each other-it took considerable time to find the shells- work out the food sponge but even then, all the ROVed jeaniana have come from the same ,very limited, population

You need TIME. Time for good weather or at least time to wait for good weather. Time to explore and given the sea condions off the WA coast, time to sleep and rest

Infinite patience and plenty of luck $?????

Not prone to seasickness- I was hurling my guts up after watching the monitors for 10 minutes

For comparison, the Taiwanse pair trawlers operating off WA, used nets with 80 metre head ropes and trawled at around 3 knots (about 6km/h), for up to 4 hours per trawl. That's covering about 1.92 square kilometres. Now try doing that with an ROV, essentially looking @ each square metre, one at a time. No wonder the fishermen were "shovelling them back over the side". aurata, I'm talking about here.
By comparison, ROVing for 2 solid weeks of searching, produced 3-5 new shells-not enough to cover the expense of the trip

From my limited experience, I believe the following:

The prices paid for these recently caught shells reflects the effort put into finding them.

More shells may or may not be found. Depends on whether the ROV gets deployed.

Who is going to have the time and money to "look" for Zoila perlae perlae and Zoila mariellae, without any guarantee of return? the North West sea bed is a huge area.

Fisheries WA will not permit trawling for shells. Even the keeping of shells as by-catch is not allowed (now)

I think that perhaps one day, the rarer zoila will become available-but I think the numbers will be very small and I not expecting it to happen any time soon. It will take a venture with plenty of time, money, rescources and luck to find mariellae!

As for other counties??? Perhaps if set up costs were cheaper one could ROV to one's heart content for midwayensis, tessellata lani et al
But then again most other countries have less stringent fishing legislation so I'd probably trawl with a finer mesh!!

So if there's anyone with the cash, I know a skipper with time to kill
_________________
Cribraria Kid

[Englerti]

Hi Cribraria Kid,

Thank you very much. Very interesting.

Since operating a ROV is so expensive and it doesn’t worth to use it just for catching shells, I’d like to know what is its principal purpose. I mean, why that “former” WA shell dealer has got such an expensive device? Is it an instrument for scientific researches, owned by an institution?

Regards,

[benicypraea]

Thank you very much, Cribraria Kid!! Your comment is very very interesting and I read it with great interest. I am absolutly convinced about the hard job to get shells by that way.
By the way, do you have pictures of an old taiwanese trawlers? I found one picture of these vessels years ago in the net. Of course, the picture was taken while the taiwanese fishermen were operating there (legally at least) in WA by an oficial boat of the Australian fishing Autorithies.
Regards,
Beni
_________________
I started to collect seashells since my childhood but I decided to focus on cowries in 1990. I like all kind of cowries, freaks, normal, nigers, dwarfs...
Also I collect conidae and Muricidae.

[Notocypraea]

G'day CK,

Very interesting and thanks for sharing!

Given all that the price on the ROV jeaniana was probably quire reasonable!

Didn't Chandler & DuRoss do some early ROV work in the late 80's/ early 90's (from what I read in ASC book)?


Regards,
NC
(Notocypraea Kid)

[Cribraria Kid]

The ROV(s) was/were privately purchased to soley collect shells. After a while, the short comings of the first ROV became all too apparent, so a second, more capable machine was purchsed. To avoid future pitfalls- spend big and get something powerful enough to combat the unpredictable and often strong flowing Leeuwin Current. No good if the ROV does 3 knots and the current is doing 4 knots

ROV's are widely available and you can easily teach yourself to operate them (think gaming console PS3/X-Box)-the big drawback is parts-ordering and getting someone who can competently replace them and service the machine according to the planned maintainence schedule (in a nearly laboratory/sterile enenvironment). Quite hard to do in remote NW Australia

C & D did operate a device but I believe it had an unfortunate demise ( Not sure if was sanctioned by Fisheries tho)

Personally, I think the biggest hurdle lies in the beaurocratic process of applying to use an ROV in the first place.
Fisheries seem to rely greatly on the Proffessional Shell Divers (ProShellWest) input. Given that shell collection is recognised as a "by hand " method of capture IMHO, I don't think the chances of approval for a second ROV operator are all that good.

Like I said before, "So if there's anyone with the cash, I know a skipper with time to kill"
_________________
Cribraria Kid

[felix]

Thank you very much for the first-hand information, CK!