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Real cowrie species versus made up form name?


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rlutan




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PostPosted: 23.10.2011, 19:54    Post subject: Real cowrie species versus made up form name? Reply with quote

Hello all,
I am wondering once again whether the name of the game is naming as many new forms/species so someone can make lots of money of unsuspecting shell collectors. What comes to mind is the Hawaiian "hinuhinu" and "pseudonucleus" species. These 2 supposedly new species were written up in a journal by Fabio Moretzsohn recently. Any comments on the validity of these 2 species? Are they just hybrids between nucleus and granulata?
Thank you!!
Robert.
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rlutan




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PostPosted: 23.10.2011, 19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Came across this form name recently.

http://www.shellauction.net/auction_shell.php?id=432459&pres=1A Leporicypraea mappa viridis f. kanakinus from New Caledonia.

Does anyone have any info. on this species or form please?
Thank you!!
Robert.
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XEP-BAM




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PostPosted: 23.10.2011, 20:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me all above mentioned ofcourse are only forms that dealers make to earn additional money.
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rlutan




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PostPosted: 23.10.2011, 20:38    Post subject: Real cowrie species versus made up form name. Reply with quote

In case you haven't seen it, here is the link to the "kanakinus"
article.
http://www.britishshellclub.org/pages/pallid-past/200410_pallidula.pdf
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EmberCowrie





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PostPosted: 24.10.2011, 00:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

What really bothers me is when some dealers deiced to give a shell a "form name" that is the same as the species name of another, usually closely related and nearly always much rarer shell, to try and dupe people into thinking that that is waht is being offered. For example, there is at least one dealer on ebay I've seen who lists shells as Cypraea mappa f. valentina (pay close attention to that f.) for prices that are far in excess of what a mappa of the collecting region should go for (but somewhat less than a valentia would go for to try and dupe people into thinking they are getting a bargain.)
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felix
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PostPosted: 24.10.2011, 08:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Batt's description is invalid as for several reasons the ICZN is not met, so kanakinus remains a fantasy name*. In any case, it is geographica rewa without the slightest difference to other W. Pacific populations*. John is a nice guy though and it is fun reading anyway*.

hinuhinu is a hybrid between granulata and nucleus*. One may or may not introduce a forma-name for such things, I am ok with that. I fail to detect any substance in pseudonucleus though*, and put it in the same category as Dolin's 16 new Ransoniellas*.

*: always add "in my opinion".


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rlutan




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PostPosted: 24.10.2011, 23:52    Post subject: Real cowrie species versus made up form name Reply with quote

Thank you for your input Felix.
Since I am not a full fledged scientist, please tell us what criteria are needed for ICZN? For example, who decides whether the criteria are met or not? Who can write papers-- anyone or does it have to be a Ph.D or something similar? Does the journal or publication mean anything? In other words, will an article in Visaya qualify for naming a new species or does it have to be in something like Schriften zur Malakozoologie? I understand that various opinions can exist regarding certain scientific principles, etc. I just don't know what to believe anymore. LOL!!!! Geschockt
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rlutan




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PostPosted: 25.10.2011, 02:01    Post subject: Real cowrie species versus made up form name. Reply with quote

I forgot to mention this:
Felix, you crack me up with your "bullshit" button!!!! Lachen
So, does anyone know whether there have been DNA studies done
on hinuhinu or pseudonucleus? How many percent of the cowrie species have had DNA studies done I wonder-- 10%, 20%, ...?
Robert.
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oohboy




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PostPosted: 25.10.2011, 02:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, Felix is correct. Hinuhinu is a hybrid, analogous to amphitales which, IMO, is also a hybrid. Both are rare, but both are hybrids. An interesting case study for hybridization though.
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felix
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PostPosted: 25.10.2011, 08:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert, I strongly suggest you simply go and buy or download the Code of Nomenclature. It is fun reading, believe it or not. Frankly, anyone can describe a new species. Visaya is OK, even privately published magazines can be ok if certain criteria are met. all that is stated comprehensively in the code. My slave just died so I do not have the time to reproduce it all here, sorry. The problem with Mike Batt's description for instance is that he is describing this kanakinus in the third place, that means, as a form (species, subspecies, form) and that is no longer legitimate. Had he proposed it on the level of a species or subspecies, it would be an available name that we may then use on the level of a forma, if we ever wanted to.
oohboy, re. the DNA: nucleus and granulata are so close that they hardly qualify as separate species based on DNA. Yet morphologic diagnosis tells us differently of course, we have consistent features to divide between them. That hinuhinu thing may or may not have been tested but it is likely to either have nucleus or granulata DNA, it will not be "intermediate" DNA as that is passed on only by the mother. Remember we are talking mtDNA not nuclear DNA when it comes to those analyses.
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rlutan




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PostPosted: 25.10.2011, 18:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are indeed correct Felix.
The ICZN code description is quite extensive.
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted-sites/iczn/code/index.jsp?nfv=true&booksection=contents
I also found a shortened version here: http://iczn.org/content/how-can-i-describe-new-species
I presume "mtDNA" means mitochondrial DNA versus nuclear DNA.
What's the difference between those 2 sources I wonder? Is one type easier to study? What kind of effort is required to study a species' DNA-- how costly, how much labor, how long, etc. etc.? Frage
Robert.
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PVDB




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PostPosted: 25.10.2011, 20:32    Post subject: PVDB - why mitochondrial DNA? Reply with quote

The spermatozoidal nucleus that penetrates the ovula is avoid of mitochondria.
One of the reasons that for genealogy maternal lines are preferred.
A man will have mitochondria also but the coding comes from maternal side

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is contained in the cytoplasm of the cell of male and female and not in their nucleus.
During merging of the parental cells at conception this type of DNA is passed by a mother only to both male and female offspring without any mixing:
so your mtDNA is the same as your mother's mtDNA, which is the same as her mother's mtDNA.
It is important to keep in mind with this test that a male's mtDNA comes only from his mother and is not passed on to his offspring as the nucleus of his sperm cell is avoid of mitochondria and mDNA.

There are practical/technical reasons too (mDNA versus mRNA and others)

Genealogy. mtDNA changes very slowly so it cannot determine close relationships as well as it can determine general relatedness. If two people have an exact match in their mtDNA, then there is a very good chance they share a common maternal ancestor, but it is hard to determine if this is a recent ancestor or one who lived hundreds of years ago.
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rlutan




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PostPosted: 26.10.2011, 01:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting Philippe and Felix!!!!
Even though I had a Biology Major in college I have never heard of mitochondrial DNA before. I wonder if this is a new concept? Anyways, here is a link with an exhaustive and complete explanation for all the questions I asked above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

Indeed, to quote "the comparison of mtDNA sequences is the mainstay of phylogenetics (another big word I learned), in that it allows biologists to elucidate the evolutionary relationships among species.It permits an examination of the relatedness of populations. The low effective population size and rapid mutation rate of mtDNA make mtDNA useful for assessing genetic relationships of individuals or groups within a species and also for identifying the phylogeny among different species". Biologists can then compare mtDNA sequences among different species to build an evolutionary tree for the species examined.

Why mtDNA is only inherited via the mother:
1. simple dilution, an egg has 100k to 1million mtDNA, while a sperm has
only 100 to 1000.
2. degradation of sperm mtDNA in the fertilized egg (paternal sperm mitochondria are marked with ubiquitin to select them for later destruction inside the embryo)
3. failure of the sperm mtDNA to enter the egg (most mitochondria are found at the base of sperm's tail, which is used for propelling the sperm cells. The tail could be lost during fertilization)

So, yes, mammalian sperm cells DO have mitochondria, but they are either lost during fertilization or destroyed by the embryo after fertilization.

Wow, my mind was taxed quite a bit reading that Wikipedia article. Mit den Augen rollen
Robert.
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EmberCowrie





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PostPosted: 26.10.2011, 02:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

EmberCowrie wrote:
What really bothers me is when some dealers deiced to give a shell a "form name" that is the same as the species name of another, usually closely related and nearly always much rarer shell, to try and dupe people into thinking that that is waht is being offered. For example, there is at least one dealer on ebay I've seen who lists shells as Cypraea mappa f. valentina (pay close attention to that f.) for prices that are far in excess of what a mappa of the collecting region should go for (but somewhat less than a valentia would go for to try and dupe people into thinking they are getting a bargain.)


found one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cypraea-Mappa-geographica-f-VALENTIA-DWARF-f-Rarely-Cowrie-ANDAMAN-Sea-AH999-/230691845662?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b64e361e
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rlutan




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PostPosted: 26.10.2011, 03:45    Post subject: Real cowrie species versus made up form name. Reply with quote

Or this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cypraea-pulchella-f-Andaman-34-3mm-DARK-Cowrie-RARE-Andaman-Shell-AH924-/230691841364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b64e2554#ht_1118wt_1396

Seems that this particular dealer has a lot of f. andaman
in his selection. Is this kosher? What about guttata surinensis f. bengalensis?
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