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Venusta episema and sorrentensis question


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syncerus18





Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 296

PostPosted: 26.01.2013, 05:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

you guys misinterpreted me! I wasnt questioning the value of shells Geschockt Its one thing I respect and find aesthetically pleasing. I was however asking how can two shells: Shell-A and Shell-B possess different values when Shell-B is nothing but a synonym of Shell-A (venusta episema and venusta episema sorrentensis, which some of you agree to be one and the same too).

I guess its just a matter of reference?

Regards.
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ozcyp




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Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 207
Location: Mackay, Australia

PostPosted: 26.01.2013, 06:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand your point, don't worry.

The topic just became a little side tracked.

As mentioned before, it really comes down to the dealers what name ends up on the label. The 'crossover' point from sorrentensis to episema tends to be around the 60mm plus mark. I kept any shells from 50mm to 62mm together and then displayed 63mm to 80mm in the next row only for aesthetic reasons. In future I may display shells in the order of locality starting from south to north for something a bit different.

Re: The price of any given venusta sorrentensis or episema will be judged also on the grade, colour and size of the specimen.

Eg., a small standard sorrentensis around 53mm with typical colour and f+++/gem grade nowadays is between $40 to $60.
Then along comes a 61mm, gem with very dark to black colour and its $100.

The same examples apply to the large 75mm to 80+mm 'episema' monsters that come out of Geography Bay, but now we're talking a few hundred dollars.

I'd be interested to know what the Guide 3 says about these large beauties.
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dan81





Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Posts: 24

PostPosted: 26.01.2013, 09:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

to me its not so much the size of the shell but the locality of where the shell was found that defines the name. the inshore population of venusta around the marmion marine park are usually named sorrentensis. i believe this name was derived from the closest city to this stretch of coastline, Sorrento. i have found sorrentensis over the 60mm mark and episima from rottenest under the 60mm mark.
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syncerus18





Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 296

PostPosted: 26.01.2013, 09:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

dan81 wrote:
to me its not so much the size of the shell but the locality of where the shell was found that defines the name. the inshore population of venusta around the marmion marine park are usually named sorrentensis. i believe this name was derived from the closest city to this stretch of coastline, Sorrento. i have found sorrentensis over the 60mm mark and episima from rottenest under the 60mm mark.


thats where it gets confusing, because Rottnest is in theory sorrentensis territory, so how did episema made it up there when Bunbury was supposedly set as its northernmost range?

To conclude, from now on I will no longer use the form name sorrentensis. Ill just stick with episema, and refer to the northernmost group as episema "Mandurah" form or wherever it was found.
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Cribraria Kid




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Joined: 13 Nov 2008
Posts: 62
Location: Perth

PostPosted: 26.01.2013, 19:44    Post subject: Venusta episema and sorrentensis question Reply with quote

Quote:
I will no longer use the form name sorrentensis


Sorrentensis is a great name for the inshore Marmion form.
I use it to differentiate the shells I sell-to me, sorrentensis only comes from Marmion.

Sure some of the shells (the larger, more ovate females) can be indistinquishable from other areas but the small, dark and slightly twisted sorrentensis is a joy to behold (and satisfying to find).

It's just a shame that any small venusta from Yanchep to Mandurah area gets labled as such when, the name really applies to shells from a specific locality.



PS
During the '80's a local dealer sold any venusta greater than 57mm as episema and anything less than 57mm as sorrentensis
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syncerus18





Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 296

PostPosted: 26.01.2013, 20:54    Post subject: Re: Venusta episema and sorrentensis question Reply with quote

Cribraria Kid wrote:
Quote:
I will no longer use the form name sorrentensis


Sorrentensis is a great name for the inshore Marmion form.
I use it to differentiate the shells I sell-to me, sorrentensis only comes from Marmion.

Sure some of the shells (the larger, more ovate females) can be indistinquishable from other areas but the small, dark and slightly twisted sorrentensis is a joy to behold (and satisfying to find).

It's just a shame that any small venusta from Yanchep to Mandurah area gets labled as such when, the name really applies to shells from a specific locality.



PS
During the '80's a local dealer sold any venusta greater than 57mm as episema and anything less than 57mm as sorrentensis


Hello:

Thank you! Very enlightening. Its the first time I have heard of someones opinion on specimens from Marmion. Is the name sorrentensis also applicable to shells off Sorrento? Given its VERY close proximity to Marmion?
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Notocypraea




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Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: 27.01.2013, 09:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely a case of misunderstanding!
I for one have no problem with spending $XXX on good quality specimens with good reliable data etc. Yes I do get annoyed with the profusion of names (most scientifically invalid from my information and in my opinion) used but will in future hold my tongue more!
I will also try and refrain from my Smart Ass comments! Geschockt
I have been fortunate to dive with a number of Commercial Zoila shell divers and with perhaps the exception of those lucky guys down in Albany I believe the price of Zoila is more than justified given the hard work, distances involved and frequency of encountering specimen quality shells.

I also agree for example that 'Sorrentensis' is a great form name for the inshore Marmion form.
As CK stated the small, dark and slightly twisted (male?)specimens from that area are quite unique in appearance.
But to me this is only a Form name. The animal is identical to that in the venusta from north & south & south west! As to the GAB form I have no idea of what the animal is like!

I really look forward to how the venusta group is treated in Edition No.3 of the Guide!

Best Regards,
Simon

PS. So who has a venusta episema roseopunctata to sell me then... sorry just ignore me! Sehr böse
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syncerus18





Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 296

PostPosted: 23.04.2013, 05:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello:

@Simon your nonadherence to the episema name is very evident. I have a venusta episema f. Sorrentensis f. Roseopunctata x roseoimmaculata for sale Sehr glücklich Im sorry.

So sorrentensis is localized to Marmion area only? And further, only applicable to the smaller twisted shells in that said area?

Thank you for the response guys. Alls perfectly clear now.
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fertooos




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Joined: 21 Feb 2020
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PostPosted: 11.03.2020, 00:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree with Simon on sorrentensis/episema. sorrentensis is a small episema, a variation at most. Depends on the dealer if a 60 mm is episema or sorrentensis....

However, venusta has several well defined subspecies as I will demonstrate in the guide 3. These are geographical or bathymetrical ssp. be prepared for a surprise here.
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